tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post7885661260760511721..comments2023-10-26T03:19:41.569-07:00Comments on Stephen Bodio's Querencia: Attack of the Scientific ReductionistsSteve Bodiohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14434597061701369867noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-34079837735269541912012-08-13T06:17:49.234-07:002012-08-13T06:17:49.234-07:00This is a killer post.
I read it when it first ca...This is a killer post.<br /><br />I read it when it first came out, and at the time I was quite in love with the simplicity of the argument laid about by people like Raymond Coppinger, even though I did have a certain amount of quibbles with some of his insistence that dogs were nothing more than mentally delayed wolf puppies.<br /><br />Over time, I've been exposed to more literature and more criticism, and those quibbles I had are actually major problems that these models can't answer.<br /><br />BTW, they essentially gave up looking for the genes that separate tame foxes from nontame ones. I believe the experiment now has folded in Russia, though I think it still goes on at Cornell.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-36644586023914545532009-06-16T08:51:07.876-07:002009-06-16T08:51:07.876-07:00Don't worry, Mike Spies, if they start genetic...Don't worry, Mike Spies, if they start genetic testing for bad guys, they'll probably be a grandfather clause to exempt us old bad guys......L.B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-29897581818255683142009-06-14T09:34:31.906-07:002009-06-14T09:34:31.906-07:00Matt wrote:"Mike I suppose they'll have u...Matt wrote:"Mike I suppose they'll have us all figured out pretty soon. What then?"<br /><br />Welcome to the future. <br /><br />Imagine the consequences of genetic testing... 'they' can identify 'bad guys' before they are born, and divert them into a rehab program at birth? Scares the hell our of me.Mike Spieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10181679891489101232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-29055388664754579402009-06-13T16:54:04.434-07:002009-06-13T16:54:04.434-07:00Part of the problem with studying dogs in the labo...Part of the problem with studying dogs in the laboratory is one of the problems with reductionism in general; some systems you cannot break down without also destroying the system and eliminating all hope of useful information. The nutshell way I usually put it is that it's the same reason you can't take a cat completely apart, put it back together, and still have a functional cat.<br /><br />Dogs in a pack or dogs in a home- dogs being social with distinct relationships in general- are the "system". Isolate the dog and deprive it of relationships, and you won't get much useful information about dog behavior.LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-10522507761293124222009-06-13T15:07:21.781-07:002009-06-13T15:07:21.781-07:00Mike I suppose they'll have us all figured out...Mike I suppose they'll have us all figured out pretty soon. What then?<br /><br />L.B., Rina barks once, sharply, at the back door when she has done her business and is ready to come back in. But when she sees me leave with the kids to the pool down the street, she howls.Matt Mullenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11198069782508775543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-70208485150144540402009-06-13T13:32:54.186-07:002009-06-13T13:32:54.186-07:00This is on an apparently semi-parallel track to th...This is on an apparently semi-parallel track to the work that Dr. Mark Neff is doing at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.<br /><br /> He is looking for a genetic basis for the pointing instinct in bird dogs. The goal is to identify a genetic basis for behavior, which could indicate a research direction for investigation of behavior-linked genetic material in the human genome.Mike Spieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10181679891489101232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-966035853239366632009-06-13T08:09:17.326-07:002009-06-13T08:09:17.326-07:00The general public really needs to take some of th...The general public really needs to take some of these "scientific" experiments with a grain of salt(sometimes a fifty lb. block would be more appropriate) and realize that, interesting as some of the subjects are to discuss, a lot of these professional scientists don't have a lick of horse-sense, and are so anxious to get a paper published and make some great new discovery, that they often overlook what the farmer down the road has always known! One of my favorite "discoveries" was an experiment done with beagles in cages in a laboratory(obviously frustrated and bored out of their minds), which somehow "proved" that domestic dog barking was simply a "release mechanism" with no meaning or ability to communicate at all! Obviously these intellectuals had never kept a dog at home, or they would have learned quickly that dogs have very distinctive barks and other noises that mean very specific things, not only to other dogs, but that even the dull primates they live with can eventually pick up on!....L.B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-87438870531921213902009-06-11T18:53:29.841-07:002009-06-11T18:53:29.841-07:00So, what does the 'tameness' gene do when ...So, what does the 'tameness' gene do when there aren't any human beings around? Just make the animal really gullible...?Moro Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03170995132520805860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-21182359886178186672009-06-11T14:58:16.101-07:002009-06-11T14:58:16.101-07:00One of the really interesting things the popular p...One of the really interesting things the popular press pays absolutely no attention to is the profound effect epigenetics can have on animal populations.<br /><br />Lines of genetically identical plants exihibit varying phenotypes - despite being (genetically speaking) clones of each other. Thise variation isn't just due to getting different amounts of water or sun or nutrients, it's also due to epigenetic changes in the daughter plants. And - in some cases these epigenetic changes are passed on to *their* offspring.<br /><br />Some have proposed that the rapid phenotypic changes seen in the Belyaev foxes was due more to epigenetic than genetic change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-67465426410501722522009-06-11T13:50:36.164-07:002009-06-11T13:50:36.164-07:00Jah, tameness, fearlessness, and domestication are...Jah, tameness, fearlessness, and domestication are not the same thing. How could there be one gene?<br /><br />My khaki ducks are totally domesticated beings. They are also terrified of people and will flee a hand -- have been since hatching. However, they are "tame" in terms of not being aggressive towards people. When I can catch them, I can pick them up and carry them with no struggle or danger of being scratched or bitten.<br /><br />My guineas were the same way, though perhaps less "domesticated" than the ducks. They were fearful of being touched, but less fearful in general compared to the ducks. And they'd continue to fight handling until subdued.<br /><br />The chickens, on the other hand, are completely tame, and sometimes must be chastised for being "aggressive" -- whether that's a simple willingness to peck a hand, or a rooster charging with spurs and beak engaged. The "friendliness" of the nebbiest hens and the "aggression" of the rooster are two sides of the boldness coin.<br /><br />The colony of puppymill dogs that I have been working with (in custody/ held as evidence pending the cruelty trial) are, as are all dogs, completely domesticated -- and were not tame when confiscated. Unlike a wild animal, most tamed up in a matter of weeks with an hour or so a day of work. They also show shockingly low levels of aggression towards humans.<br /><br />Faddists claim that all aggression is founded in fear. Poppycock. The most fearful beings are too scared to be aggressive. And one can train some highly reliable and impressive aggressive behavior in a dog with the right genetics, by building up that dog's confidence.Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-30033673921376138302009-06-11T13:05:14.350-07:002009-06-11T13:05:14.350-07:00Oh! I've got that one!Oh! I've got that one!Matt Mullenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11198069782508775543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8732486.post-71627246172122927892009-06-11T12:45:21.499-07:002009-06-11T12:45:21.499-07:00brb, finding the gene for being fascinated with na...brb, finding the gene for being fascinated with nature.LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.com