My friend Gregg Barrow trains championship protection dogs and has a soft spot for unwanted "hard case" hounds. A German police unit recently sent him a dog they couldn't handle, a monsterous, muscled-up, sulking giant schzauzer who savaged several handlers. Gregg has also been, in past years, a case worker and counsellor for criminal teens. He carries the big frame of a former college football player and looks a natural for tough guy roles. But Gregg's thoughtful comments and quiet demeanor defy typecasting.
I asked Gregg to comment on the recent critique of controversial "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Millan in this article forwarded by Reid. In the mean time, Patrick Burns posted on the same story with a logical defense of Millan's main premise: Dogs are not children and do respond positively to an assertive "pack leader" owner.
Gregg writes:
I thought Mark Derr's column was insightful, a tad sensational, and long overdue, but, the Buddha he's attempting to kill on this particular roadside is already going the way of Barbra Woodhouse: Our local grocery store has stacks of Dog Whisperer videos in the $1.99 bin and the companion book has already been discounted twice.
Cesar, quite simply, brought back compulsion to dog training. And in all honesty, it needed to be returned to the companion dog trainer's mental bag of techniques. Strong, willful dogs that eat up (pun intended) the food-motivated foundation training require a firmer hand when it's time to take the next step and start working for real world reliability.
This is the wall the "click and treat" crowd runs into when working with this type of dog. Unwilling to admit the shortcomings in their training programs or the limits to their experience, these purely inducive trainers quickly label the dog as "un-trainable." Unfortunately, many of these dogs end up being cast off when salvation was only a well-timed leash pop away.
Compulsion, or punishment, has its place in training; a dog trainer is hard pressed to set boundaries and consequences for misbehavior without it. But it has to be fair. It has to be the next logical step in a well-thought-out training sequence. When the pressure of correction comes, the dog must understand instantly how to escape this pressure ( i.e. obey the command.) This empowers the dog and teaches him that he is in control of his actions.
David Deleissegues, a friend of mine from California , is an international competitor in Schutzhund and has assisted as a trainer on movies such as Turner and Hooch. The dog rescue organizations are keeping David booked because, in the Land of Fruits and Nuts [no offense to Reid and Rebecca], where cookie training is king, he is one of the few trainers willing to use compulsion. And he gets results where others cannot. Dogs are being saved that would otherwise be put down and the rescue groups for the working breeds are flocking to him. David's success lies in his ability to use motivational instruction, ignoring (or extinguishing) negative behaviors in the early stages, followed by creative distractions and fair punishment. David's form of compulsion looks nothing like Caesar's. The dogs that come out of his program look nothing like the dogs I have seen roller blading with Mr. Millan [looking for that picture: Millan lording over a dozen cowed, crouching Beta dogs]. David's dogs, in contrast, "get it," and they respond enthusiastically---yes enthusiastically---when punishment is necessary.
A pastor once told me "you gave thirty years to the devil, now give the Lord equal time." The analogy is this; most behavior problems, aggression in this case, are created, fed and nurtured over a period of time. And it could take the same amount of time, if not longer, to cure them successfully. It can't be worked out during prime time minus commercial breaks.
Cesar's methods appear to include fatigue, deprivation and domination. The results are not easily transferred to the owner. And with certain dogs, these methods create the proverbial time bomb.
In all fairness to Cesar, I've only watched his program once, but he lost me when he was discourteous to the owner and rolled his eyes and smirked at the camera as if to say….."Loser".
This is a service industry. Call me old-fashioned, but there's no room for attitudes in training or when working with the public
The media has made him into a modern day Horatio Alger and his irreverent attitude toward his clients endears him to the "wink and nod" crowd. Unfortunately, he meets the needs of the quick fix microwave society in which we live and he will be quoted as gospel for some time to come.
Relationship or lordship, training or domination, companion by the hearth and in the field or slave?
Mr. Millan's message is not new; it has simply come full circle and it's just as out of balance as it was on the first, second and third go-round. The turn and crank, drill and kill instruction found in the AKC obedience class, Schutzhund field or retriever club twenty years ago has given way to motivational techniques. Dogs that would have earned perfect scores back then would be criticized for lack of drive and animation today. The problem, which Mr. Millan has capitalized upon, is that the pendulum has swung so far to the opposite extreme that today's motivational trainer is just as inadequate in the use punishment as his predecessor was in the use of positive motivation.
Training comes down to a little common sense, the ability to be introspective, a hand full of sound techniques, a simple blue-collar work ethic and patience. Unfortunately, these are qualities that appear to be lacking in a significant portion of the dog owning community today, and Cesar knows it.
If you've already paid full price for the books and video, hold on to them, like fashion and music trends, these methods will be back in style again.
---Gregg Barrow
13 comments:
Right on the money throughout. I teach obedience classes and show my students how to correct their dogs - after we've shown the dog what a particular command means and after the dog has shown that it's caught on. Some dogs need to know about the possibility of correction early (when they're just starting to get it), some late. I have the correction discussion (not often any more, it seems a waste of time) with clicker trainers; one of my points is that we're dealing with an animal that is set up to understand negative reinforcement/aversives/correction - why eliminate an entire range of ways to communicate your wishes? So that you can feel somehow morally superior? Seems like we're putting our needs ahead of the dog's - but that's just me.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Gregg's comment about the eye-rolling. I will walk away from a training gig, but I won't trash a client. The ones I walk away from tend to be folks who already have very fixed ideas about their dog and training approaches to same. It's as if the dog's problems fell out of the sky and the solution is to do what we're doing already, with redoubled effort and an 'official' trainer standing by to provide validation. Not gonna play...
I can't start! What I can say is the brouhaha about Mark Derr's piece in the Times (and let's remember - he is one of a couple of, and I love the NY Times, but between Derr and Katz in the Times, dogs get short shrift!) - but my bigger concern is the flurry of internet chat over this swipe at the bottom line (which this is about - not training or dogs but Cesar Millan and Geographic are making a killing on sales of books and dvds, remainder bins notwithstanding) and this takes away from the 'other' crowd -those about whom I can't start -- but where attention needs to be is what Ted Kerasote addressed the other day also in the Times (don't always agree but glad he gets run there) - the threat to fair access for off-lead dog walking!
That's a bigger threat to training and liberty (in the circus context) than all this other stuff.
-margory
My take on the issue not whether it's best to beat a dog with a carrot or a stick, but who gets to be the boss.
It seems to me that social status is an altogether different issue that motivation, although it impacts your options there tremendously. It would be easy to confuse these issues, and maybe I have.
My experience with dogs is minimal but long-standing: I've had dogs all my life and hawking dogs since about 1986, but only one at a time. Our current whippet came to us as a shy 7-month-old without much human socialization. Her first response to everyone in the family seemed to be sheer terror---It was a week before she would leave to kennel longer than necessary to eat.
Since then she seems to have placed herself into the family heirarchy somewhere between myself and my wife, and generally above both kids. Note: I am ahead of my wife ONLY in the dog's view...
How Rina sees herself in relation to the other members of our family has obvious impact how she responds to each. My wife and kids don't ask much of her and give her wide lattitude in response (call backs in particular); this may contribute to a sort of feed-back loop, as she tends to ignore them anyway.
She does listen to me and does respond, but she's so sensitive to my commands I've got to be careful how I speak and even look at her.
We are still working things out, and "carrots" are (for all of us in the family) still much more effective with Rina than "sticks." In her case that will probably always be so.
But say you have a male husky or other large, assertive breed. I don't think in their case it would be wise or even possible to effectively manage them if you find yourself at the bottom of their totem pole.
RKO'C - I reread my comment. My apologies - I was painting with WAY too broad a brush. It's a bit of a hot button with me - I've been told that any trainer who uses corrections is lazy and/or stupid and/or spiritually stunted. One can say what they will about my spiritual growth (or lack of same) - probably true - but they question my commitment to my dogs and the dogs I help train at their peril *wry grin*. I may be a bit proactively defensive (you think?).
Regarding your 1st paragraph - none of my remarks were directed at individual trainer's practices. Someone who can read a dog and understands what motivates the dog is going to get what they want out of the pup. What I'm worried about, at least as regards this post, are public training methods - how do we teach people to train their dogs - for me, especially in the context of a group class.
I couldn't agree more - the people I see in classes tend not to be adept at reading their animals. I'd extend that to observe that many dogs in my classes aren't getting much reinforcement - positive or negative. They may be getting praised and may be getting scolded but often in a way that is completely disconnected from the behavior we think we're reinforcing - timing, timing, timing. So... a couple of the things I try to do in classes:
- give folks a simple script to follow -> say this, then do this, then do the other thing, then immediately praise the dog.
- try to call attention to some of cues/signals/postures/whatever you want to call them that their dogs are showing them.
And a bunch of other stuff too, but those are 2 biggies. The first is more important that the second as far as I'm concerned - I can (and have) taken people by the hand and moved them through the stuff, but have yet to figure out how to make someone who is looking right at their dog figure out what the dog is saying if the human just doesn't get it. Lucky for us, dog make their living observing people, so I can rely on at least half the team to be reading the situation.
Sheesh - I'm running on - sorry. Matt, I see the leadership thing as a big piece of the overall 'why does my dog do that' puzzle - it's deeply interrelated with the specifics of training. The biggest behavioral train wreck I ever saw was a timid, subordinate dog whose owner would not lead - thus this 4-legged bundle of nerves felt he had to lead the pack. Fear-biting, along with some other not-so-good stuff.
Sorry for going on and on - best regards...
For what it's worth I think this is a terrific discussion between people who know how to train dogs (and other things), with less disagreement than clarifications.
I think Dr Hypercube'second post hit it right on the nail, though everybody has been implying it: how in HELL do you get the blind to read, the deaf to understand what their animals are reading?
Wow! I don't know enough about Millan to really comment but I do understand his point about letting dogs be dogs. I see so many people treating their dogs like babies, or toys, or kittens, and a lot of rude bratty dogs. Now that I'm in the "Little dog" club I see so much more of that crap and it breaks my heart.
As someone who's trained a few horses I also understand that critters need everything to be definite, and can't deal with grey areas. They want, and need, to know who the leader is. So, who's it going to be?
I have a garage full of tools: hammers, screwdrivers, saws, wrenches and all sorts of implements of construction and destruction. I rarely need them all but I know how to use them all.
I have always looked at training methods or techniques the same way. I try to collect them all and have them ready incase one isn’t getting the job done. There are a lot of ways to accomplish the same result. I’ve trained lots of weird critters to do lots of weird stuff. None of this comes with a training manual (someone please write the step-by-step guide to training your penguin) and you have to be flexible and understand basic training theories to motivate. The best trainers I’ve worked with stick with the basics, analyze the behavior and deal with it through positive or negative reinforcement which ever applies.
But I have also trained a lot of trainers and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that if a particular training method doesn’t make sense to the individual trainer it won’t work. What works for me might not work for the next guy, there’s nothing wrong with the technique they just don’t “get it”. We all know there is no “recipe” for training a bird or dog or tortoise but unfortunately the general public seems to want step-by-step directions and it’s impossible to cover every situation. It might work 90% of the time but animals are individuals.
There’s no trick to training. It’s all about clear communication.
Well said and sensible comments throughout. As usual I am a bit late and playing catch-up.
As far as I can tell, Cesar Millan is usually stepping into a situation where a kind of pathology has taken hold and the dog is running the house and causing distress to the people. As a general rule, the humans are tentative and the dogs are dominant and in control. Getting these roles to reverse themselves requires putting in motion a different set of training behaviors than if the dog were very young or new to the household.
Millan is in the unenviable position of training two animals at once (human and dog) and breaking two sets of bad habits. A flick to a misbehaving dog is as much a signal to the human owner as it is to the dog that a New Sheriff is in town and that the old call-and-response sytem between dog and owner is no longer in operation.
The good news is that most dogs can deal with a New Sheriff in town provided that Sheriff is consistent, clear, calm and fair (as Gregg said). Pack dominance is rarely permanent and so dogs are biologically programmed to have their status rise and fall within a pack. Getting a new leader may require a small battle of wills (which you can see going on in the series at times), but it is not traumatic or horrible for the dog so long as the results of the conflict are unambiguous and the leader continues to maintain his “head of the pack” position.
One a new order is established and maintained for a period of time, things generally calm down and regular rewards-based training and shaping can begin. As noted, this is the kind of training that leads to a “higher level” performance and learning.
I am most assuredly NOT a dog trainer (or an animal trainer of any kind), but from what I can see there are a LOT of ways to train a dog and almost all of them work (granted, I have had no hard-case dogs!). Some may be better or easier, or allow you to achieve more with the dog, but in truth most people just want a dog they can walk on a leash and that will come when called and not bite them or the neighbors. It’s a pretty low bar. If the bar is kept that low, no matter what book you pick up out of the stack, if you follow directions and stick with it, you will probably get a fairly well-trained dog at the end of a couple of weeks.
Sadly, most of Cesar Millan's customers seem to be so brain-befogged they have not bought a book or tried anything beyond a few days. After a few months or a few years, the dog is setting all the rules, and the people are just about ready to move out of their own house. A pathetic situation, but apparently common enough to create a TV series out of it.
Say what you want about that old battle-ax Barbara Woodhouse, she knew that a choke chain did not choke and she taught a generation how to put one on and use it. That alone saved a lot of canine lives.
Patrick
Ironically enough, the kind of gringos that ex-illegal alien Millan trains are no doubt the kind of people who have aided and abetted the illegal alien invasion. Not the profiteers, but the rank-and-file citizens who looked the other way for so many years.
Perro Azul-- that is too true to be funny!
Oops Gregg, you messed up bigtime. You lost me with your flippant "I only watched one show and he lost me when he was discourteous and rolled his eyes as if to say". Then you proceed to base your comments on what others have said about him--you have no other source, not having seen him nor read him. Guess what, Gregg? What is being said about him is not accurate. The NY times article did the same thing you did: watched a little, saw something they didn't like and didn't understand, and then assimilated their comments to their preconceived ideas surround terms like 'aggression' and 'compulsion' and 'deprivation'. This is not responsible. When you have watched, say, half of Cesar's ouevre and read his book, how about then weighing in? Read what Gladwell has to say. You can see what Cesar is about if you are perceptive about what he is doing on tv, if you watch closely and with an open mind. But your diatribe betrays a certain complacency, so we're not holding our breath out here.
Okay, so if someone wants to really work on their training of dogs, what is the best way to start? Clicker training? What?
I have four dogs and read them pretty well but I want to improve my training skills.
OK if your friend is David Deleissegues you shouldn't talk about humane training methods. He is as crude as they get. He uses something called "stretching the dog" to get the aggression out. It is seriously cruel - leaves scabs and torn ligation on the dog's neck. Ties the dog to one end and then pull the dog till the point the dog is ready to almost kill himself. And no the aggression didn't go.
I am not supporting or negating Cesar Millan or any +ve dog trainer, they both have a place but this guy is a seriously troubled individual.
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